Page 2 - Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching

16-11.-2008, 07:04 AM	#16
Felt_Rider Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,396	Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching I wish I had time to join in on this, but I will pass a link about this discussion to a friend that is starting to coach. __________________ My Blog

19-11.-2008, 02:24 AM

#17

Krazyderek

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: NS Canada

Posts: 88

Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching

Quote:

1) How much time are people willing to commit? To make such an online course a true value, I figure that it would need to move beyond just the half-day of lectures on exercise physiology that is part of USA Cycling's level 2 coaching certification. OTOH, I don't think it would be possible to go into tremendous detail, as A) not everyone signing up for such a course necessarily has the background that would be expected of an undergraduate exercise science student, and B) only so much detail is really useful to a coach (versus interesting). Just off the top of my head, then, I was considering 1.5 h/wk for 10 wk, or perhaps 2 h/wk for 6 wk. As potential student/clients, does that make sense/appeal to you?

Depending on how dense the material and the possibility of exersizes / assignments / test i would be more in favor of the longer class for a shorter number of weeks. Most one off class's are run this way, weather from web course's to summer course's at university's.

Quote:

2) What time of year would be best? Assuming that most of those signing up would be from the US (which may not be a valid assumption), I'm thinking that summer in the northern hemisphere would be too busy a time for most people. OTOH, I can also see people have problem committing so much time to such a course over the winter, what with holidays and all. So, I'm leaning towards the fall (obviously not this year) and/or spring - what say you?

Being in eastern canada, i would agree. Fall, its when most people are doing the least amount of trainning in north america. Maybe a bit of 'cross, and commuting, but not to many people are putting in 10-15hour weeks in the saddle during the fall.

Quote:

3) What about tests and grading? Although I joked about calling myself an institute, I don't envision this ever growing to the level of any kind of certification or diploma program (although if somebody wants to take that business model and run with it to form a university for cycling coaches, I could see being a part of that). IOW, those signing up for the course would be doing so almost entirely for the knowledge they would gain, and not in hopes that it would open other doors re. their coaching career. If that assumption is correct, then I don't see a lot of need for tests to make sure that people are truly grasping the material...basically you'd be on your own there. OTOH, I do think that knowing you're going to have to pass an exam at some point is often motivational. My initial thought is therefore to just have an exit exam that is graded pass/fail, but with a standard for passing that is sufficiently high that I'd be comfortable with someone presenting themselves as having passed my course. Thoughts?

Even the most interested person will waver over several weeks. By removing any certification the course might offer graduates i think you'll hit the right market of eager minds, but that doesn't mean that a walk in the park is the best way to make sure the material will sink in. Everyone will have aspects that they might really be interested in, and other points, not so much. I don't know how feasable case studies are, but they would seem like a good way to assign readings or "homework" for the following week. Nothing that would be enforced, but maybe there could be short multiple choice quiz's which are quick to correct and go over based on case studies.

Quote:

4) How much to charge? This is the toughie, and I'm still mulling over what is a reasonable fee. Obviously, though, the more people who sign up the less it would have to be per person to make it worthwhile. I would therefore likely establish some minimum number of individuals who would have to sign up by a particular date for the course to "make", and refund any and all up-front fees to those who pay in advance if it didn't. I'd also likely offer a discount to coaching groups, as that would A) help them, and B) remove some of the incentive to have only one person sign up but then have a bunch of other people also gather around their computer screen.

I think this is a good first step, start a poll and put up some ball park numbers for how much people would be willing to pay for such a course on this forum, or a website. There are ton's of computer skill related online course's. Everything from downloadable video's, to audio files, to documents and presentations.
Ultimately it does come down the price. If cycling peaks were 1500$ instead of 150$ for example, it would be plastered all over pirate sites.
All i can offer on pricing is a comparative of fee's i've paid in the past, and a hope that your course will modestly reflect what then end user takes away from his/her class.
University (6hrs x 6 weeks) - $600 / course
College Diploma - $2500 / year
Road Commisair certification (weekend -10 hours in class 5 hours at a race) - $50
3D modeling web course (6hrs x 4 wks) - $300 / wk

Quote:

5) Let's see, what else? I'd make the syllabus available for free a priori, and would probably recommend (but not require) a particular textbook. I don't know whether lectures would be downloadable...on the one hand, it would be great as a student to be able to review material, but on the other, there is no way of preventing the file being shared with those who did not pay for the course. You could argue that what you get for your money is the ability to interact directly with the instructor, but that is diminished in an online course vs. in person, so I'm not sure whether that adds sufficent additional value to discourage piracy. Maybe make the .ppt slides freely available, but not the audio? I don't know...

I have seen system's where the video is only ever broadcast live, and you have to dial into a phone number to hear the audio live. It's very pirate unfriendly but for those of us who don't have land lines, or long distance packages this system can be prohibitively expensive. It's also not skype or voip friendly last i heard, and has various other technological drawbacks.
But i think the market although good, is small for this type of service, and you're not going to see a torrent showing up with 200 people sharing your class lectures / files, and 3000 people trying to download it.
Especially if you integrate reviewing quiz's, and case studies into the lectures / videos / presentations it would create a disconnect and make it hard for people that don't have all the course documents and text's to follow along.

I would support downloadable content simply because it's more flexible for my lifestyle. I'm the type of person pushing for TV shows online simply because i'm to busy most night's to let a service i pay for dictate when i can use it. Many broadcasting stations are finaly starting to see the light and make their prime time show's available on their websites for viewing.
Even something that's browser integrated which makes all material available to students at anytime they log into a secure website might be an option.

19-11.-2008, 03:01 AM

#18

otb4evr

Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Chicagoland

Posts: 329

Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krazyderek

Depending on how ... might be an option.

All great points.

One thing that I would like to see would be reading 'x amount', or 'these chapters' from the 'recommended' book or 'these handouts' between classes to be able to understand the material that will be taught at the latter class.

This would help me quite a bit toward being pleased with the level of instruction, as I would likely understand it quite a bit more.

Jim

19-11.-2008, 03:17 AM

#19

daveryanwyoming

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,566

Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

1) How much time are people willing to commit? ...1.5 h/wk for 10 wk, or perhaps 2 h/wk for 6 wk....

I'd opt for 2 hours for 6 weeks or even 3 hours for 4 weeks. I've been teaching adult ed classes for the last five years and find that folks tend to run into more conflicts when the course spans too many weeks and that it takes time to get deeply into a subject and that I end up rehashing week after week to bring folks back up to speed. For me, more hours per session spanning a shorter number of weeks works better.

Quote:

...2) What time of year would be best? ... So, I'm leaning towards the fall (obviously not this year) and/or spring - what say you?...

Fall would be great. It's the time to start planning winter training. Time to reconsider sucesses and failures from the previous year and a time when some structure and theory can get folks fired up for the coming year. I strongly suspect one of the outcomes of your course will be an appreciation for building solid metabolic fitness ala Lydiard. If so, spring is a bit late to find out you should have layed a solid foundation, summer is full on race season and winter could work but fall makes the most sense in terms of planning your upcoming year based on solid principles of exercise physiology.

Quote:

...3) What about tests and grading? .... I do think that knowing you're going to have to pass an exam at some point is often motivational. My initial thought is therefore to just have an exit exam that is graded pass/fail, but with a standard for passing that is sufficiently high that I'd be comfortable with someone presenting themselves as having passed my course. Thoughts?...

Agreed, an exam or other exit criteria can be motivating as well as validating to make sure you really grasped the important concepts. As you say, this course likely won't carry much weight beyond personal satisfaction so any exit exam will effectively be optional. If you don't need or want the confirmation that you grasped the key concepts no one is going to force you to take the test. But I'd want to make sure I got a good handle on the key points....

Quote:

...4) How much to charge? This is the toughie, ....

This is always tough, but I'd definitely make it worth your while so you don't start to regret your weekly time investment (including the inevitable follow up questions here, on the Google lists, etc.). I'd also make sure folks are paying enough that they actually want to see the process through and not doing it on a whim. FWIW, I teach a series of digital photography and Photoshop for photographers workshops for our local arts association. It has some community funding so it's not an apples to apples comparison but we charge $225 for a 15 hour workshop and we typically fill our classes. I'd easily pay that and perhaps a bit more for a solid exercise phys course with emphasis on real world context and application. Yeah, I know you're not setting out to teach a coaching course, but I've gotta believe you'll illustrate concepts with cycling related examples where appropriate. If so it would easily be worth the cost of a decent wheel....

Quote:

...and would probably recommend (but not require) a particular textbook...

That alone would be worth quite a bit.

Quote:

...I don't know whether lectures would be downloadable...on the one hand, it would be great as a student to be able to review material, but on the other, there is no way of preventing the file being shared with those who did not pay for the course. ...

How about bundling the lectures and selling them as a package when the course is all said and done. It's a potential ongoing albeit small revenue stream sorta like Charles Howe's power training guide. Yeah there's some risk of piracy but for the right price I suspect folks would pay to have the complete set. Maybe you could talk to Charles about how to deal with the piracy issue.

BTW, sign me up if you decide to float this thing,

-Dave

19-11.-2008, 05:07 AM	#20
rmur17 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 994	Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching hi Andy, Sounds very worthwhile to me. I suspect it will be hard to narrow the content down to just a single course of say 10-12 hrs, i.e., maybe multiple courses? __________________ rmur Last edited by rmur17 : 19-11.-2008 at 05:47 AM.

19-11.-2008, 06:20 AM	#21
acoggan Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,624	Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching Thanks for the feedback, everyone. As I mentioned in a couple of emails to people, it's unlikely that I'd put something like this together before next fall (if ever). Still, I am listening/taking plenty of notes, so if anyone wants to put their $0.02 in, please do so.

19-11.-2008, 08:36 AM	#22
giannip Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 250	Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching so while we all hope for the above to become reality ...would anyone like to suggest (apart from the reading I am already doing) some worthwhile starting point re: my initial question ? I'm based in Europe, work fulltime and do my best at turning the pedals, so if anyone from this neck of the woods has done any courses they feel are worthwhile (e.e Open University course), I would appreciate suggestions.

23-11.-2008, 04:22 AM

#23

richvoss

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 10

Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

Boy, a bit more enthusiasm here for this idea than I expected!

Thanks for the positive feedback, everyone.

Since I have y'alls attention, perhaps I can get you to serve as an unpaid "focus group" for me.

In no particular order, here's what I've been considering/questions that I have:

1) How much time are people willing to commit? To make such an online course a true value, I figure that it would need to move beyond just the half-day of lectures on exercise physiology that is part of USA Cycling's level 2 coaching certification. OTOH, I don't think it would be possible to go into tremendous detail, as A) not everyone signing up for such a course necessarily has the background that would be expected of an undergraduate exercise science student, and B) only so much detail is really useful to a coach (versus interesting). Just off the top of my head, then, I was considering 1.5 h/wk for 10 wk, or perhaps 2 h/wk for 6 wk. As potential student/clients, does that make sense/appeal to you?

Sorry I have been out of town and visiting my folks in the cold snowy northeast. That simply means no internet access.

Personally I would be fine with any format, but the 2h/wk for 6 wks sounds the most workable

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

2) What time of year would be best? Assuming that most of those signing up would be from the US (which may not be a valid assumption), I'm thinking that summer in the northern hemisphere would be too busy a time for most people. OTOH, I can also see people have problem committing so much time to such a course over the winter, what with holidays and all. So, I'm leaning towards the fall (obviously not this year) and/or spring - what say you?

I would love to see this happen this spring! If that's too soon then next fall, late Octoberish would be second choice for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

3) What about tests and grading? Although I joked about calling myself an institute, I don't envision this ever growing to the level of any kind of certification or diploma program (although if somebody wants to take that business model and run with it to form a university for cycling coaches, I could see being a part of that). IOW, those signing up for the course would be doing so almost entirely for the knowledge they would gain, and not in hopes that it would open other doors re. their coaching career. If that assumption is correct, then I don't see a lot of need for tests to make sure that people are truly grasping the material...basically you'd be on your own there. OTOH, I do think that knowing you're going to have to pass an exam at some point is often motivational. My initial thought is therefore to just have an exit exam that is graded pass/fail, but with a standard for passing that is sufficiently high that I'd be comfortable with someone presenting themselves as having passed my course. Thoughts?

I do like tests and grading. I always have so that's fine with me. Certainly something that would give Andy/us feedback on how much we learn and retain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

4) How much to charge? This is the toughie, and I'm still mulling over what is a reasonable fee. Obviously, though, the more people who sign up the less it would have to be per person to make it worthwhile. I would therefore likely establish some minimum number of individuals who would have to sign up by a particular date for the course to "make", and refund any and all up-front fees to those who pay in advance if it didn't. I'd also likely offer a discount to coaching groups, as that would A) help them, and B) remove some of the incentive to have only one person sign up but then have a bunch of other people also gather around their computer screen.

I would feel very lucky to have something like this available. I would be willing to pay what it would take for it to be worthwhile for Andy to do it. Of course a cost that wouldn't be prohibitive to enough folks signing on. How's that for being vague? :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

No opinion here....whatever works for the masses, and Andy of course.

Please let me know if/when this happens! I am there.

-Rich

23-11.-2008, 10:58 AM

#24

Steve_B

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: Boston, USA

Posts: 704

Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. As I mentioned in a couple of emails to people, it's unlikely that I'd put something like this together before next fall (if ever).

So Andy, is this sort of a prelude?

SPECIAL PRESENTATION: Andy Coggan and Hunter Allen 2-part-Webinar, Dec. 3rd and 9th!

The Good Doctor Coggan has agreed to a Webinar on "The Physiology Behind Power-based Training". It's hard to get the Good Doctor out for a webinar and I have finally convinced him to do one this winter! You'll definitely want to attend it! There has been many requests from these groups and others on the "Ex-Fizz" side of Training with Power. Learn from the man that practically invented power training!

It's a Two part webinar where Dr. Andrew R. Coggan will teach the first one on Dec. 3rd at 8pm EST, and I (Hunter Allen) will teach the 2nd one on Dec. 9th. 8pm EST. Each webinar will be an 1.5 hour presentation and then 30 minutes Q & A session afterward.

My webinar will be on - "The Practical Application of Power Training Principles". I will take you from start to finish with "Tommy Torque", collecting his data, analyzing it, figuring out strengths and weaknesses, developing goals based on his time constraints and building a training plan based on TSS! It will take all the principles Coggan teaches you about and put them into action.

Dates/Time doesn't work for you? Don't worry...both these webinars will be recorded and available for download for all customers afterward to review at their leisure, or they can be purchased later as well.

Current monthly subscribers to my webinars will get these SPECIAL PRESENTATIONS at 50% off.
Sign up now. SEATS are limited!
http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/p...g_webinars.html
<http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/power/power_training_webinars.html>

24-11.-2008, 12:27 PM

#25

acoggan

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2003

Posts: 2,624

Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_B

So Andy, is this sort of a prelude?

Pretty much...although instead of trying to squeeze a semester's worth of material into, say, 6 x 2 h sessions, I've got to squeeze into just 1.5 h!

24-11.-2008, 12:54 PM

#26

daveryanwyoming

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,566

Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

Pretty much...although instead of trying to squeeze a semester's worth of material into, say, 6 x 2 h sessions, I've got to squeeze into just 1.5 h!

Have you thought about trying this approach?
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/IEC/elementsong.html

25-11.-2008, 07:17 AM

#27

Hunter w/kg

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2003

Posts: 89

Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. As I mentioned in a couple of emails to people, it's unlikely that I'd put something like this together before next fall (if ever). Still, I am listening/taking plenty of notes, so if anyone wants to put their $0.02 in, please do so.

In the meantime, you should attend his online Webinar that I finally got him to agree to do!
Dec. 3rd- 8pm (GMT-5)
http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/p...g_webinars.html

It promises to be more information than you can possibly pack into 1.5hours by Andy Coggan... ;-)

Hunter

__________________
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25-11.-2008, 08:04 AM

#28

acoggan

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2003

Posts: 2,624

Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

Have you thought about trying this approach?
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/IEC/elementsong.html

Trust me when I say that you don't want to hear me sing.

25-11.-2008, 10:10 AM

#29

richvoss

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 10

Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter w/kg

Will this webinar have more info than the level 2 cycling certification and the power based training certification? If so, a lot more or a little more. It sounds great but it may be a lot of what has been presented in these other courses already. That's certainly not a bad thing, just wanting to spend $$ wisely..... Or save it for Andy's 6week course

Thanks!
Rich

25-11.-2008, 12:57 PM

#30

acoggan

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2003

Posts: 2,624

Re: Sports studies e.g. physiology / coaching

Quote:

Originally Posted by richvoss

Thanks!
Rich

I haven't lectured at a level 2 course in a couple of years, so don't know precisely how Dr. Macgregor currently approaches the topic(s). IIRC, though, you attended one at which I did present, in which case you may wish to save your money (unless you just want a refresher). I say that because simply due to the time available, this presentation will be a bit less in depth.

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