2008 Ftp?

doctorSpoc

i say that's just simple wrong... because you obviously can if you use a tool like monod.. then formal testing is just not necessary to ferret out each component of fitness, because you already know this just by feeding monod your data from regular training sessions... at least as accurately as is necessary to guide your training and honestly you don't even have to know absolute value, you just need to know up or down and maybe by how much. testing can then be used to see how those components are coming together and how they impact actual performance.. imo 20min is more indicative of the mix of the anCap and aerobic fitness necessary for all round racing fitness than is 1hr (for reasons i gave previously)... and it also gets fed back into monod as well... as some else said the training is the testing and the testing is the training.

but yes, i think we are in agreement in terms of what info is needed to make informed decisions about our training.. but there is a little disagreement in terms of how best to gather that data and what data is necessary to gather..

above is my point, below is just extra stuff..

in the case of NMP, if i do a 15sec test, i go through 5 s on my way to completing 15 sec so... why bother with a 5 sec tests? by doing 15 sec i actually get more information than by stopping at 5 secs because i get an understanding of how NMP and AnCap are impacting sprinting performance over a duration more representative of the ability i'm training... 5 sec is too short to determine or train sprinting ability... i.e. i'm testing/training for sprinting ability... i'm not testing/training for NMP... but the good thing is that my NMP value is a byproduct of the testing/training for sprinting... just like AnCap and aerobic fitness levels are a by product of the rest of my training (when using Monod). if i test performance for a typical duration that i will ask my legs to perform at in a typical race (or an effort that has the approx. balance of AnCap to Aerobic fitness), on a representative course... again... i gain some insight into how those bits are coming together and impacting performance... real performance... like as when someone uses a race as a test.. so again, i don't need to test each discrete underlying metabolic fitness level specifically because i can reasonably predict them if i feed a tool like monod with data from my typical training regime.. which is really easy to do.

add to this that, if you've been training for years, you pretty much know the mix of training necessary to get you where you want to be, what you are really looking for in testing, is an indication of where you are not how to get there.

i don't need to test directly or even to know my FTP directly because i can use the tools at hand to get much, much more than FTP alone would ever tell me. i can look at multiple data points and i can predict the points between the known data point to a reasonable degree of accuracy, i can even look out farther out than 60min power and i can look at and relationships between data points... looking at a curve has much more utility than looking at a single point on that curve.

tonyzackery

As I mentioned in this thread long ago, racing performance (for racers anyway) is what really matters - not testing numbers, irrespective of the protocol.

I'm very interested to see the time trial times of those high on the listing - I'm fully aware that a road race or crit is a more difficult barometer with which to compare lab testing and actual performance...Regardless, a cat 4/5 racer with 4w/kg should be able to score some wins in road races that involve some hills...

I sincerely hope most will post their results - those that support their testing numbers, and (I realize this is asking alot) those that don't...

acoggan

I thought we were discussing using 20 (or 30) min power as an indicator of metabolic fitness?

doctorSpoc

+1

but in leu of racing... in the off season, during builds or before that big race it's kinda nice to know where you are in terms of your fitness... this impacts heavily on what tactics you will use and what goals you will set for yourself in a race... or even if you WILL race or keep your ass home an train instead... testing is useful as long as you don't let it get in the way of your training.. i do virtually no formal testing at all.. all my 'testing' numbers are gleaned from numbers from training/racing.

doctorSpoc

why would i discuss how best to test directly for 1 hr power, when i think that making that measurement directly is a complete and utter waste of one's time?

rmur17

You're welcome to your opinion. However it appears that many people on here feel differently.

In any case, this thread is about sharing FTP progress for 2008. Do you have anything to add in that respect?

__________________
rmur

acoggan

At the risk of repeating myself, I thought we were discussing how to best track metabolic fitness based on field tests of power. My position is that a single 20 (or 30) min test is sub-optimal in that regard, something that you seem to agree with in that you use the critical power approach (which requires measurement of power at more than one duration). Yet, you persist in advocating a single 20 min test, even though you seem to recognize that it doesn't entirely differentiate between metabolic fitness and other determinants of performance ability (e.g., anaerobic capacity). IOW, neither your statements nor your actual habits are logically consistent.

As for the relevance of anaerobic capacity/20 min power vs. metabolic fitness to racing success, I disagree with you on that, and would offer my own performance as evidence. To wit: despite having a below-average anaerobic capacity (such that my 20 min power is only ~3% greater than my functional threshold power), I made it up to cat. 1 in the crit-centric midwest, and have won the majority of mass start races I've done since turning 40.

whoawhoa

Monod testing isn't formal?

Using data from regular training sessions seems like a great way to get bad data. Do you really give all-out efforts at the appropriate durations routinely?

strader

Can we get back to bragging about how much power we make now?

doctorSpoc

you act as though every year is the first time you ever rode a bike or strapped on a power meter... i have 3 years of data to inform me that if i'm on a training load of x my power has been historically y... i know others on this board have much more historical data

but c'mon man, this is ridiculous.. really.. how acurately do you need to know those numbers...? knowing that number to the nth degree allows you do adjust your training how? please tell me how those decimal place will change.. anything when you get out there on the road? if you are riding a threshold interval and it seems too easy or you are not able to complete it because it was too difficult are you going to ride the next one at the same intensity just because your numbers say x,y or z... c'mon, who are you kidding.. this isn't brain surgery...

after a taper or a few days off i might take some of my numbers from some effort that i did in the previous week and plug them into monod to see what it spits out... completely informal.

formal testing and determining FTP to the nth degree seem like a great way to unnecessarily take time away from training i.e. a big waste of time.. taking your 20min power and using it to calculate 1hr power is just dumb... why... just use the 20min number

doctorSpoc

exactly, at least your honest.. this is the best purpose for calculating FTP... it allows for a pissing contest.. mine's bigger than yours...

whoawhoa

I thought about adding something like "I've recently gone away from using Monod and other formal testing because it seems needlessley complicated and now I just use typical racing and training data." Apparently I should have.

Anyway, I'm not advocating constantly pinning down ftp to the watt. I just believe that if you use monod testing to set training levels, you need to be moderately fresh and go all-out for the duration. I've gotten some pretty weird results from using bad data.

Really, my preference is to use a glaring data point (power pb for 20+ minutes, usually) as a prompt to raise my ftp, then just make sure that number seems right during training.

doctorSpoc

i don't use monod to set training levels.. i use what i can actually do in training to set training levels.. i periodically look at monod number so estimate numbers i don't normally do in training e.g. 1 hr power.

doctorSpoc

i agree with you... i think i stated that 4-5 post ago. but i'm looking at this from practical point of view... when i get on the road and i'm going to do my interval, when i'm planning my training schedule, what concrete thing changes based on that 3-4W difference in that value? what does that precision get me? basically, nothing.. the utility gain from the precision from a practical point of view for these formal field tests is so low that they are waste of time... i can get close enough and in fact get even better other information by other means... not a good use of ones time, an just plain unnecessary... even using monod.. i only take a peak a few times a year and i'm not doing anything formal, i'm just taking some numbers and seeing what they spit out.. more for interest sake than anything else.

know what's really funny... you are actually a prime candidate for using 20min power... the difference in your 20min and 1hr power is within the precision of most power meters... isn't that ironic

anyone that's been riding for more than a minute knows that races can be won in many different ways... a rider will be successful if the maximize on their assets and limit their liabilities... and it also helps if you have tactically inept competition. People such as yourself should be the easiest to out maneuver tactically since you only have one weapon at your disposal. It should be really easy to counter.. basically sit on you or do considerably less work than you if in a break with you and then go around you at 100m to the line. the other side of the coin is that those with considerably less aerobic abilities than yourself can make up for it by exploiting their AnCap abilities and for shorter effort good AnCap can mask low FTP.

it comes down to this.. the only situation that you won't have to worry about AnCap is if you finish solo... and how often does that happen? and even then, how did you attack in the first place? even from a small break you're going to need to sprint or attack in order to win etc... bottom line... maximizing you AnCap means maximizing your odds of success in racing... and that goes for anyone. but again if you're smart enough and/or you competition is foolish or ignorant enough it's possible to find a way to win... but most of the time i think you'll find yourself getting a lot of 5th-10th places.

sorry strader... i'll stop now.. let the pissing resume...